I have one area in my faith, in my relationship with God, with which I struggle deeply and painfully. It is the suffering of the unknowing, non-understanding innocent. Specifically, horrendous cruelty and evil inflicted on children. The two links below provide recent, stark examples to what I refer.
http://www.comcast.net/news/index.jsp?cat=GENERAL&fn=/2007/02/07/580780.html&cvqh=itn_pornring
http://www.comcast.net/news/national/index.jsp?cat=DOMESTIC&fn=/2007/02/08/581800.html&cvqh=itn_freezingdeath
You can find similiar reports daily with ease. Millions of similiar incidents and other heinous acts occur across our globe daily.
These reports make me angry. I want justice that includes severe vengeance upon the perpetrators. I want more than earthly justice, I desire immediate spiritual vengeance. I know that this is not right for my heart.
I will be frank that these test my faith more than anything else. I can understand or least rationalize the existing of suffering on this earth. I have found faithful ways to handle suffering and the understanding of suffering. But this type of suffering, the extreme abject evil of these acts darken my heart and my faith.
I do not pretend to understand God's plan or His allowing such malevolence to continue and even to increase. I get angry with God. I pray for understanding. I pray harder that God will protect the children of this world. I cannot get my head and my heart around these issues in a productive way. I physically weep with rage and pain when I read, for example, of a man that killed a 5 year boy by slamming him into a shower wall repeatedly until he died of massive head and internal injuries. The reason for the man's anger? The boy screamed and cried while he was repeatedly raped by the man. A 5 year old little boy! How does anything remotely resembling a human do such a thing?
Dear God, I cannot bear the thoughts I have of the terror this innocent child endured! The pure and innocent have no understanding of evil. They cannot understand the wrong. It seems to me to be a vicious, calculated attack on goodness by some force of evil-- an act meant to slowly destroy us all.
After I delve into my anger for a while, I begin to contemplate how God and Christ must feel watching the most pure forms of evil recur unceasingly minute after minute . How does God endure us, endure this world, watching the destruction and torture of those pure, innocent souls that He not only loves deeper than we can imagine, but which He created? They are a continual recreation of the rejection of Christ and His crucifixion streamed forth in broadband. How does God withhold his wrath and not destroy us all? In these moments, I want Him to do so. I want Him to end it all; to save the innocent that have not yet been harmed. It is during these moments I truly can understand the psalmist who cries out for God's wrath and vengeance upon the unrighteous.
At this point in my Christian immaturity, my method of faith survival is to blindly trust God's plan. I reach a point of shutting off the pain and any thought process, and I just believe that God is with us. I have no illusions that this is a good or proper response. But I cannot give up my faith in God, so I have to shut down the overload to my faith senses. I do not permanently shut them down. I do not ignore. I will revisit the issues and the evilness again when I see another example. But I feel that each unintentional plunge into the pit kills a little part of me.
I beg for insight and help from any that may provide wisdom. And please pray that God ends this evilness. I don't mean to be depressing, but I need a release. I need to be open with this struggle with the naive hope that such openness is a way to fight evil in the Light.
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Gethsemani Homilies by Matthew Kelty, O.C.S.O.
25 comments:
I feel you on this one, Tony. I really, really do.
Thanks, Phil. Maybe we can have a one-on-one sometime. I need some dialogue in this area from my brothers and sisters in Christ.
Tony, have you read I & II Maccabees? If not, you should. The Jews who lived during the 2nd century BCE could not find any reason why God would let innocent people (especially children) suffer under the oppression of Antiochus IV. God didn't seem to do anything.
It is quite interesting that this is where we first see the development of the idea of afterlife in Judaism. Aha, If God allows suffering during this life, he must reward his children after death.... Add the Greek idea of the afterlife and you will arrive at the early Christian (Helenistic) viewpoint of suffering, death, reward, etc.
I know that discussions about afterlife rewards do not satisfy your struggle with suffering in this life and God's apparent lack of intervention. They definitely don't give me the answers I want concerning justice. This world sure doesn't seem to work the way Deuteronomy 28-30 spells out, does it? The author should have read Job first.
I have chosen to look in another place for the way the world works, as you may already know. I think that bad things happen because they CAN happen. There is a sort of ramdomness and chaos that our universe complies with in order to develope and grow. It is far bigger than each of our individual "worlds", bigger than our city, bigger than our state, bigger than the earth, bigger than the galaxy, etc. Mankind cannot control random events by implementing laws or even introducing religion for the sake of the good of the people.
Sorry if this depresses you. It is the way I think and just wanted to share it.
Brent
Brent, the problem I see is that the absolutely evil perpetrated by child abusers is intentional and motivated. It is anything but random.
I cannot understand how God let it go on, but one thing that I am absoluting convinced of from such terrible acts is that there is some active evil involved. And borrowing from my physics background, there are opposites for every force. So at the same time I struggle to understand God, a great good presence is evidenced to me. Along with the many other pieces of evidence that I personally see, I truly believe in God.
Your comments and the discussion do help and they do not depress. They cause me to articulate the good parts too. Thank you so much for joining in. Please continue. The dialogue is very beneficial.
Jesus said that those who thirst for a righteous world are blessed. When I look around at what is happening to innocent people, especially little children, I also become frustrated, and I want to see justice done. One thing that I have prayed for is the ability to look upon these cruel, inhuman people as victims of the terrible struggle between us and the "principalities and powers" and to help me feel pity toward those who are unloveable in this world. Slowly God is helping me with this and is bringing me some comfort as I wait, somewhat impatiently, for Jesus to return and clean up this mess. That's another thing I pray for every day--that God will send Jesus back very soon.
Yes, the word "random" was not the best one to use. I was attempting to convey my viewpoint that things happen in this world without any apparent divine intervention.
In my opinion, people find God exactly where they want him to be. People in the ancient world attributed all sorts of things to the god/gods they worshipped. When it rained on a farmer's crops it was because he had been living according to the god's will. When a male child was born, it was considered a blessing by God/the gods rather than because of an X or Y chromosome donated by the father. Thunder and lightning often represented displeasure from a god. When a volcano erupted, some god was really pissed. We now know that this type of thinking is silly and superstitious. Are people today really any different? Today, many people pray for friends and relatives that have cancer because they think that God can cure them - if it is his will, or course. However, people rarely pray for cases of alzheimers, down syndrome, or amputated limbs because we no that recovery from these just doesn't happen.
I know that I am discussing things that may not seem related to your problem with suffering, but I think they are connected.
It all goes back to my statement, "people find God exactly where they want him to be." If we look for God to act on behalf of the poor, oppressed and suffering, we are often disappointed. In my opinion, it is because we are looking in the wrong place.
Tony, I'm curious about your statement, "one thing that I am absolutely convinced of from such terrible acts is that there is some active evil involved." Are you referring to Satan? If so, how do you justify this biblically and theologically?
Brent
JMG, I too am praying for Christ to return ASAP and end this mess. I unfortunately struggle mightily in wanting to see evil people as victims, although I agree with you. My heart hurts so much I want to see these people suffer. Which I think is one of weapons of the evil force to which I refer. It uses the pain my goodness feels for suffering to turn me to detrimental thoughts that serve evil more than they serve God.
Wow, just thinking this helps me fight my struggles and it is the discussion here that provokes this aid.
Brent: I am not necessarily referring to Satan. I am referring to an active evil force in this world, and this is clearly discussed in scripture. The Bible is very clear about a force in opposition to God, Christ, and Christ's righteousness. The details of that force are not important compared to the fact that such evil exists. Satan is as good as any other human manifestation of this force.
I think the real danger is for man to pretend that evil does not exist; to think that it is just the way the world is, because we then we inherently concede any counter-effect we might be able to have. As Churchill (I think) said, "the only thing necessary for evil to succeed is for good people to do nothing."
If you look anywhere else in nature, the hard parts of life are driven by survival or life cycle issues (acquiring food, protection, etc.). It is only in humans that we see, as a regular pattern of behavior, the infliction of hurt on others for no other reason than to vent our own pain or for some perverse pleasure or selfishness (pride and power for example).
From this, I see the evidence of a destructive force outside myself that pressures us. I have seen the exact same thing from the good side--motivations for human action that supercede any natural or instinctive reaction witnessed elsewhere in nature. C.S. Lewis discussed this type of evidence in detail in Mere Christianity.
As to the comment: In my opinion, people find God exactly where they want him to be, I find this distinctly not true for me in this case. The fact that God is not acting as I wish Him to be is my source of confusion and anger. God is for more loving and patient with humans than I wish him to be in many situations.
The irony is that I realize it is to my benefit, for otherwise I would have been struck down long, long ago.
Tony
Tony,
Your sensitive and compassionate heart blesses and encourages me.
The older I get the more I find myself saying "we live in a fallen world". I do think any of this is what God planned--it's what sin does to a perfect plan.
I know God cares, but He wants me to care enough to do something. Even though I don't understand why God would let innocent children suffer--I believe there is a plan--and we have to seek what our part in that plan is.
JB,
I'm assuming you think that the world was created as a perfect place, without death, chaos, hurt, or destruction - and that sin is what caused those things to come into the world?
What impact do you think that the Holy Spirit has had on any of this?
It may sound like I'm trying to set you up here.... I just don't see things this way anymore and don't see any truth in a "fallen world" explanation of the reason why suffering and "evil" occur.
I also don't see how the Holy Spirit has had an effect on the goodness of the world. During all my years as a Christian, I can honestly say that I never felt like an "inner helper" helped me make better decisions or aided me through troubles. It seemed like I was just like anyone else, even though I supposedly had a powerful divine presence living within my heart. Since I have rejected this notion (I'm assuming the H.S. left me, if it was ever there), I have not felt any greater urge to do evil things. On the contrary, I feel like I am more free to help others who are hurting. This is because I don't believe that divine forces help people and, therefore, we must all do our part to help one another ourselves.
Brent
Tony, what is your stance on capital punishment?
Brent,
I used to understand the Holy Spirit much as you describe here. No power, I never really *felt* anything.
However, today I don't think you could convince me the Holy Spirit does not fill my life. I experience the power of the Holy Spirit every day in so many ways--I cannot imagine life without this power.
Would you like me to say more???
Blessings!
JB,
Since you used to understand the Holy Spirit as I described, I would love to hear some examples of situations in your life that convinced you otherwise. If you could, please distinguish how God/Holy Spirit changed your opinion rather than you convincing your own self.
Brent
Brent, yes I do believe in a fallen world, the exact mechanism of the fall I cannot say nor is how really pertinent. The pertinent issue is the reality of such falleness and our response to it. I have not problem with the early parts of Genesis being allegorical or metaphorical.
I believe in the fallen world because of scripture says so and my personal experiences have only strengthened this belief not undermined it.
I do believe in the Holy Spirit, again due to scripture and my own personal experiences, which are much more powerful examples than the printed word. I don't believe a lack of the Holy Spirit within a person equates to evil. But I would say it leaves one at greater risk to the influence of evil, and also to selfish desires.
My stance on capital punishment: for much of my life I was in favor of it because of the influence of my conservative, Republican upbringing. I have changed my mind, if not necessarily my heart, on this issue. 1) I don't see that capital punishment fits w/ the ministry of Jesus. 2) From a logical standpoint, it probably has miniscule effect as a deterrent to those so messed up they would committ heinous crimes. 3) Unfortunately for me, as I related in this post, my heart still yearns for swift capital punishment for those that inflict sadistic horror on others.
However, I let my Christianity override my heart on those matters and acquiesce to my understanding of Christ on the matter. That is a good example of how I think the presence of God can transform us to overcome the opposite pressures. One of my little pieces of evidence that both good and evil external forces exist. Left to my self, I would do otherwise.
I hope JB can articulate a good answer to your last question to her about the Holy Spirit's/God's working on us. I can say without any doubt there are a many occasions where I have been changed/touched and it was not my own mind alone. I say alone. I do believe the human has a role too.
These times are difficult to articulate. The best I can do is what I wrote in my Faith Walk series of posts that started this blog. You can go through the archives if you wish to see those examples.
BTW, you ask very good questions Brent. I do not feel like I am being set up.
Tony,
Wow - lots of stuff here to talk about.
"The pertinent issue is the reality of such falleness and our response to it. I have not problem with the early parts of Genesis being allegorical or metaphorical."
This is one of the fundamental reasons that I don't adhere to a belief in the inspiration of the scriptures. You may think that I'm approaching this backwards, so let me explain. I believe in the fallen condition of humans in one important regard - all people have the potential to do things that society has labeled "evil." (If you have read my opinions about evil before, you are aware that I believe strongly that societies define evil.) From an evolutionary perspective, those things that have allowed humankind to thrive and survive are often the same things that can do harm to people and the environment. Throughout our progression, which has taken 10's of thousands of years, human society has determined and judged that certain actions (or even thoughts) are evil to God/the gods.
Back to the text of Genesis 1-6: Instead of the God of the universe revealing to someone (traditionally Moses - but that has been seriously challenged by scholarship) that the events described therein are documented history, which is a "top-down" approach to scripture, I see the text as a "down-up" collection of writings written by men who were trying to explain life's situations and difficulties. Remember - ancient people didn't understand the "way things worked." There was no science. They only knew cause and effect by simple observation. The invention of gods explained things rather easily. The earliest science of sorts was the understanding of plants and herbs and their effect on us.
This early part of the Bible was written in an attempt to explain reality by fabricating stories that seemed to make sense in their world.
"I don't believe a lack of the Holy Spirit within a person equates to evil. But I would say it leaves one at greater risk to the influence of evil, and also to selfish desires."
Christians divorce at the same rate as everyone else in the U.S. Substance abuse, sex addictions, and eating disorders - same story. Buddhists don't seem to practice many evil acts and they don't have the supposed Holy Spirit. Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, and Lance Armstrong (all atheists) give more to charity than the rest of the world combined. Disbelief in God does not equate to increased evil actions.
I'm with you on capital punishment.
Brent
Brent,
I have just a minute--so I will try to explain and then check back later.
For years, I did not experience any inner helper--in fact, I am not sure I believed that's the way the Holy Spirit even worked.
I know you don't know me, so this is hard--but I now have experienced that *inner helper*. Not really in a loud, charismatic way--more in a very quiet, but powerful way. All I can say is I am very different from when I did not experience what I believe is the power of the Holy Spirit in my life.
Now, I am able to serve people I would never choose to serve, forgive people I couldn't forgive on my own, love people that are IMHO not at all lovable, have patience with people and circumstances when answers would be preferable, and I have peace that makes no sense from what's going on inside/outside me. This is extremely real to me. I don't think I can go through a minute without the power of the HS.
It's not about me seeing what needs to happen to make the world a better place--I am not that smart. It's about submitting myself to God and allowing Him to use me how He needs me for His purposes.
And it's the Holy Spirit that allows me to call him Father and gives me faith when mine is weak.
I understand it takes faith to believe what I am saying--it sounds so fairy-talish otherwise--but I do believe it's God that fills me with His Holy Spirit--and I am so thankful!
Blessings!!!
=-)
Brent, I am not one that assumes that just because you say you are a Christian makes you one or that you have the Holy Spirit.
It is very sad indeed that divorce rates and other problems are just as high among so-called Christians as other groups. That pretty much proves that we have missed the boat in so many areas of Jesus' call to discipleship.
Tony
"Brent, I am not one that assumes that just because you say you are a Christian makes you one or that you have the Holy Spirit."
I was baptized when I was 12 and finished the rest of my school years assuming that I had the Holy Spirit. I was told that upon baptism, the HS would enter me and help me become a great Christian as long as I tried. When I was 20 - I wasn't so sure. I had the same struggles as the rest of my classmates and a few that were secrets which only God and I knew. I figured that I wasn't really a Christian. I needed to do more than get dunked (although I thought at the time that my 12-year old heart was dedicated to a Christian life...). I "rededicated" myself to God and was rebaptized. I read my Bible and prayed every day, "shared my faith" with others, helped the needy, and whatever I could think of that would help me "grow in the Lord."
I'd say that most Christians would have considered me a model member of the club - destined to be a deacon, then elder (as my father was). If I didn't have the Holy Spirit, nobody did. Twelve years later I began to realize that I didn't and, thus, nobody did. This didn't happen due to some tragic experience that resulted in anger toward God. Instead, a deep study of the scriptures that I had always based my life upon resulted in an ironic epiphany: God didn't create man; man created God. My conclusion came about because I had sought truth. I set aside any previous bias toward God and the scriptures (as best as I could, of course). I took nothing for granted. I deprogrammed myself and found that truth was really "truth."
I have shared many of my conclusions on this and many other blogs across the U.S. (and even across the lake), not to convert anyone away from God but to engage in discussions that question that which many of us have been told to be true. I ask people to give reasons for what they believe and base their lives upon. I haven't found many others who are willing to deprogram themselves in a search for "truth." It isn't easy to do because so much is at stake: careers, marriages, friends and time. A few have actually shared with me that they fear the road I took because of what may lie at the end. Others would rather be safe than sorry because they know deep down that they really aren't confident that what they believe to be true is, in fact, true.
Sorry for the long rant.
Brent
Brent,
"If I didn't have the Holy Spirit, nobody did."
With much respect to you, I don't see how you can decide that I don't have the Holy Spirit because you believe you don't. Did you read my comments to you?
"Others would rather be safe than sorry because they know deep down that they really aren't confident that what they believe to be true is, in fact, true.
Would it be possible for you to believe that I am quite confident of what I believe? I have read about your journey and while I will always respect you--that has not been my experience at all.
"With much respect to you, I don't see how you can decide that I don't have the Holy Spirit because you believe you don't. Did you read my comments to you?"
Yes, I read your comments. Yes, it is my opinion that nobody has the Holy Spirit. I was not trying to offend you or anyone else by my statement. We make judgments about other people's beliefs all of the time. If someone were to tell me that they truly believed that the world was flat, I would tell them that they were wrong. Same goes for the Mormon who tells me that the Jews sailed to North America 1,600+ years ago. You may think that it is improper to challenge the beliefs of others. I feel that we are obligated to question one another and discuss our opinions. It is one thing to tell someone that they are not allowed to think or believe something. It is quite different to critique without the use of political or religious power.
"Would it be possible for you to believe that I am quite confident of what I believe? I have read about your journey and while I will always respect you--that has not been my experience at all."
I'm quite sure that you are confident of what you believe. I'm also pretty sure that our experiences have not been the same. If you will read my last paragraph, I was sharing my experience with others in the blogworld and how not many have chosen to go the route I have gone. I explained a couple of the responses that I have received. I was not attempting to say that all other Christians "would rather be safe than sorry...."
I'm getting a little frustrated here (not really). I am giving several of you here the opportunity to give solid reasons why you believe what you believe about God and the Holy Spirit. Though I can relate to someone when they say that they are absolutely convinced that they have the Holy Spirit, it doesn't prove anything. Someone could say that they believe without a doubt that Zeus caused Katrina to slam into the gulf coast. Beliefs don't convice anyone. Personal experiences aren't very convincing either unless they are shared by others. That is why the experience I shared doesn't do much to convince many others to abandon their belief in God. However, maybe there are some who may have had a similar experience to mine.
I guess we are all here to share experiences. I have made an attempt to give personal experience, as well as specific philosophical, biblical, and theological reasons for why I now believe what I believe. I open myself up to criticism for my views. Anyone else up for the challenge?
Brent
Brent,
I, and I would imagine Jettybetty, are not trying to prove anything to you. You asked about how we feel and how we think we know. We shared that. You have to take it at face value. You don't have to believe us.
I don't think you can prove God or the Holy Spirit. I actually believe that this is a key aspect of God and faith.
God desires our hearts based on faith. Anyone can believe when the proof is unequivocal.
Saying that no one has the Holy Spirit just because you don't feel it, comes across as petulant. Also, it has no impact on whether the Holy Spirit exists or does not exist.
One thing you might consider and of which you may be unaware. When you draw discussions in the direction you have, and which you have done before, it quickly moves away from the intent of the original post and you become the focus. I don't think you want to appear narcissistic, but you may want to consider the effect.
Also, you work so hard to disillusion us on our beliefs, I am tempted to use the phrase, "I think thou doth protest to much." You like to feign that you are just sharing your experiences, but you consistently go further, offering logic and proofs that we are wrong from your your point of view.
It gives the appearance that you may not be so comfortable with your disbelief? You are clearly uncomfortable with our belief. I don't see our faith posing a threat to anyone.
I have met Jettybetty on two occassions and I have had many written exchanges with her over the last two years. I feel you were disrespectful to her.
In the end, this post has completely deviated away from the suffering of children. Satan, too may work in mysterious ways.
You're right: my comments have taken us away from the original post. I am sorry for that. I do probably protest too much. I will make an effort to stay on the topic of the original post in the future. I'll just tie up these loose ends.
My disbelief in the Holy Spirit is not due to a feeling, or lack of one. I previously made this statement about my "conversion": 'This didn't happen due to some tragic experience that resulted in anger toward God. Instead, a deep study of the scriptures that I had always based my life upon resulted in an ironic epiphany: God didn't create man; man created God. My conclusion came about because I had sought truth. I set aside any previous bias toward God and the scriptures (as best as I could, of course). I took nothing for granted. I deprogrammed myself and found that truth was really "truth."'
The irony is that I was looking for a deeper understanding of God through the scriptures and found out that he wasn't there.
The existence of the Holy Spirit is actually one that is based on the scriptures, not experience. Experience comes after exposure. The reason I don't believe that others have the Holy Spirit isn't because I don't believe their experience. People have all sorts of experiences. Instead, my reason is mainly philosophical, biblical, and historical.
Brent
I find it comically unbelievable that Tony would suggest that someone else is narcissistic. Wow. This will now be my new definition of irony.
Anonymous, you have a good point. But if you are going to offer such biting criticism, you should not do it anonymously.
If you do not have the courage do it here, feel free to email me with your concerns. Your ID will be kept confidential.
awarnold@comcast.net
p.s. I did not suggest that Brent was narcissistic, which I would have no way of knowing if he were or were not.
I suggested that he risked leaving the wrong impression. See my actual comment: I don't think you want to appear narcissistic, but you may want to consider the effect.
I purposefully worded it this way to avoid any implication which I had no intention of making.
I WILL do it annonymously. If you don't want annonymous comments, you can remove the ablitity to do so. Otherwise, I will continue lobbing grenades at will.
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